Climbing Up The Walls

[amathela]

There were a few vids coming out of Vividcon this year that I already knew quite a bit about before watching. Climbing Up The Walls, obsessive24's multifandom incest vid, was one of those, so I've been looking forward to it finally being posted. And now that it has been, it's inspired me to meta, which I don't do as often as I'd like, so you know it was doing something right.

(If you haven't already done so, you should watch it, and read the vidder's notes here; if incest is something you can bear to watch, regardless of how you feel about the pairings in question, it's well worth the download. Be warned, though, it's fairly graphic.)

Note: The following is, obviously, my personal opinion. obsessive24 is one of my favourite vidders, and Climbing Up The Walls is - objectively, and subjectively - a Very Good vid. Like many of the other vids released in the past few days, I was expecting to love it.

I didn't.

I thought it was an excellent vid, both technically and creatively. It had a fantastic premise, and a strong argument that was carried through the vid. It just didn't work for me.

obsessive24 has this to say about the vid:

I love Sam/Dean and Simon/River and Peter/Nathan. They're my OTPs of each respective fandom. But sometimes I wonder if we don't think enough about what shipping them actually means. On the one hand, I wholeheartedly support adults having the right to decide with whom to have consensual sex. On the other hand, we have an overly protective older sibling and a often mentally disturbed younger sibling; we have death and self-sacrifice and a certain level of guilt flying left and right; we have control issues, power issues, not to mention domineering and/or absentee parental figures and, well, this is all starting to sound like a big melting pot of Bad. Add sex and stir.

That's really an excellent summary of the vid, and it's a statement I can put my weight behind. Incest is one of my big fictional kinks, precisely because of what obsessive24 is saying, and that's the same thing the vid - effectively - illustrates. So why didn't I love it?

I think, primarily, it was the use of external source that threw me off. External source is a tricky thing to use in vids, and one there's still a fair amount of controversy over. Personally, I'm all for it (which I know sounds counterintuitive, given my last statement), but in this case, it felt a little ... I dunno, like cheating?

Which is not to say that AU vids, which use external source to create a story not shown in canon, aren't perfectly valid. Tricky to pull off, yes, but no less enjoyable when they're done well. I think maybe the sticking point with this particular vid was that, for better or for worse, I didn't know it was going to be AU. Would I have liked the vid better had I not had any preconceived notions? Maybe. Maybe not. The thing about these three pairings - and the thing I was expecting to see explored in the vid - is that they're already so incestuous; there's already so much canon support for the pairing. So, in a way, using (obvious, and liberal amounts of) external source and manips to create a story for the vid seemed to be overlooking the actual story of these characters - which, when it comes down to it, is not all that different.

Whether or not they're having sex on the side, these relationships are already unhealthy, already co-dependent and bordering on incestuous. In fact, another of obsessive24's vids, Post Blue, is one of my favourites, and one that explores the relationship between Simon and River as it's portrayed in canon; some of the clips may be recontextualised through isolation, juxtaposition, and the use of music, but it still is, essentially, made up of things that happened in canon. Whether or not they were intended to be read in the way they're portrayed in the vid, this scene happened, and so did this - which is, essentially, what every vid making any kind of argument relies on; to say, see, this character/relationship really is like this. By using so many external sources in Climbing Up The Walls, it felt, in a way, as if the vidder was acknowledging that this was not the sort of story that could be told within the confines of canon, that this was a made-up story rather than an exploration of the relationships presented in canon, which is, I think, doing the vid a disservice. The airtime given to the external sources, as well as the fact that the vid was attempting to tell three separate (if related) stories, sort of combined to make me feel like, at the end, there really wasn't much vid there; at worst, it felt like the canon shots were used to give context to the sex scenes, rather than the sex scenes being used to enhance the message of the vid.

(Interestingly, the use of Jensen Ackles' Dark Angel scenes didn't bother me at all, which is, I suppose, why the use of external sources either enhancing or detracting from a vid is such a fine, and extremely subjective, line.)

Of course, like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with telling a story that is AU, and if all the vidder was aiming for was to tell a fic in vid form, she pulled it off admirably. Compare dayln03's Tower Over Me, which is clearly AU, and clearly intending to be; that vid works for me brilliantly within its own constructed universe, without necessarily attempting to comment on the relationship between Anders and Duck as portrayed in canon. The difference here, I think, is that I feel that Climbing Up The Walls is attempting to comment on the canonical relationships at the same time as it constructs an AU out of them, and the combination seemed to me to work against the vid rather than in its favour; it seemed like almost exactly the same story could have been told, and the same points made, using canon alone, and I think the vid would have resonated a lot more strongly with me if it had.

All that said - I liked the vid, and I'll probably be watching it again. It just isn't making it onto my list of favourites.

Comments

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

I think I liked the vid on a personal level better than you did, because I found that despite its flaws its extremely powerful and I think she brought out a lot of very legitimate parallels both visually and in the storylines that never occurred to me. But you've hit on exactly my reservation about it. Except I wouldn't say "external footage" so much as "manipulated footage" - kissing scenes and stills.

Because I agree; they so obviously did not come from the source itself that they kind of jump out to the viewer and say, "These relationships aren't like that on the show."

One person I was talking to said she saw that as a deliberate choice - the manips (which may have already been familiar to fans - I know the SPN ones, or ones like them, are seen a lot) were meant to say to fans, "This is the relationship you're putting on the screen, it's your fantasy." And I think that's fascinating as a meta idea, but it seems to have a disconnect with the rest of the vid; the other parts of the vid are very heavily "within" the story, attempting to communicate the difficulty of these relationships. If they are a comment on fandom itself, the manips are a break from a POV that's within the heads of the characters, and a mood intended to draw the viewer in, to a more objective mode, and that switch seems a little jarring to me.

It's funny because it's such a weird line - what counts as an AU, or what counts as a manip? Because even in "non-AU" vids, these days, there's an awful lot of manipulation in ways that are invisible to the viewer. And though some may say all slash vids are AU, I disagree- I tend to think there is a difference between a "non-AU" slash vid that brings out the romantic subtext of two characters in a canon way, and one that does it by explicitly positing relationships/feelings that are a break with canon. But it's a really fuzzy line and hard to draw except "I know it when I see it."

Anyway, thanks for posting your thoughts - this was an interesting read.

[amathela.livejournal.com]

One person I was talking to said she saw that as a deliberate choice - the manips (which may have already been familiar to fans - I know the SPN ones, or ones like them, are seen a lot) were meant to say to fans, "This is the relationship you're putting on the screen, it's your fantasy." And I think that's fascinating as a meta idea, but it seems to have a disconnect with the rest of the vid; the other parts of the vid are very heavily "within" the story, attempting to communicate the difficulty of these relationships. If they are a comment on fandom itself, the manips are a break from a POV that's within the heads of the characters, and a mood intended to draw the viewer in, to a more objective mode, and that switch seems a little jarring to me.

It's interesting that you brought that up, because I was thinking more about the vid, and how it works for me much more as a note to fandom - essentially, "sure, go ahead, ship these characters (I do), but look what it does" - than as an exploration of the characters and their relationships within the story. And, as you said, I'm not always sure which way I'm supposed to read it, since there's a definite disconnect there in parts.

It's funny because it's such a weird line - what counts as an AU, or what counts as a manip? Because even in "non-AU" vids, these days, there's an awful lot of manipulation in ways that are invisible to the viewer. And though some may say all slash vids are AU, I disagree- I tend to think there is a difference between a "non-AU" slash vid that brings out the romantic subtext of two characters in a canon way, and one that does it by explicitly positing relationships/feelings that are a break with canon. But it's a really fuzzy line and hard to draw except "I know it when I see it."

I wouldn't say that all slash vids are AU any more than I'd say a character study vid that delves beyond a surface reading of canon is AU. I think the difference, as far as it exists in my head, is that AU vids explicitly create rather than explore - instead of saying "these characters have feelings for one another, let me show you" they say "these characters have feelings for one another, which led to sex and going to the drive-in," and I'm like, what? There is no drive-in! But, yeah, fuzzy line.

[obsessive24.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful post. It doesn't bother me at all that you didn't get into it as much as you and I would have liked - the use of external source is always a hard line to draw and I totally understand your view. I love that you took the time to think about it and post your thoughts.

Naturally I would disagree on the points raised, otherwise you wouldn't have seen the vid that you've seen. ;) I'm just really interested in hearing your point of view and wanted to share my side of it with you. So please don't take this as any sort of defensive kneejerk response on my part and I certainly hope that it doesn't come across that way.

From my perspective, I felt that the graphic manips and porn were necessary because vid viewers differ wildly in their readings of canon text and subtext. Where one sees wildly canon incest, another only sees a dear familial bond. For me, the liberal use of manips was a way to bring everybody down to the same playing field because if you're not all on the same playing field, then obviously the rest of the vid isn't going to make sense.

Or maybe it's because my idea is solidly based on the premise that sex is the thing that pushes an already unhealthy relationship into a let's-not-go-there horrid-arse dead-end. I felt that sex was necessary to make my point and from my perspective the sex simply wasn't there in canon. It might be, but it'll take a fairly large leap, especially if one isn't particularly invested in that particular fandom/pairing, so the manips were designed to bridge that gap and simply say, yes, they're having sex, now what.

By using so many external sources in Climbing Up The Walls, it felt, in a way, as if the vidder was acknowledging that this was not the sort of story that could be told within the confines of canon, that this was a made-up story rather than an exploration of the relationships presented in canon, which is, I think, doing the vid a disservice.
Here is where I think we differ quite a bit. My intention was not primarily to show "if there is incest, then it's bad." The primary driving force behind this vid is in fact the treatment that these 'ships have received in fandom. I've seen a lot of fics and vids that explore the incest like it's nothing; the characters mull over the ramifications of fucking their brother with nothing more than just a superficial angst face and then promptly fall into bed together. That was the essence of what I wanted to show, which begins on the premise of sex actually happening already, as opposed to "so what do these canon relationships have in common and why are they bad?" So from my view this was never supposed to be a comment on an AU universe; it was supposed to be a comment on how fandom has taken a concept and run with it without thinking too much about the consequences. Whether or not it worked, of course, is dependent on the individual viewer and what they bring to the table in terms of their own background and involvement in these issues.

I'm really pleased that the vid inspired the post, even though it didn't work for you personally. Thank you again for your thoughtful comments!

[amathela.livejournal.com]

Wow, my comment got really long - apparently I have a lot to say about this vid (which is definitely a good thing). Anyway, part one:


So please don't take this as any sort of defensive kneejerk response on my part and I certainly hope that it doesn't come across that way.

Not at all, I always love hearing more of vidders' thoughts!

From my perspective, I felt that the graphic manips and porn were necessary because vid viewers differ wildly in their readings of canon text and subtext. Where one sees wildly canon incest, another only sees a dear familial bond. For me, the liberal use of manips was a way to bring everybody down to the same playing field because if you're not all on the same playing field, then obviously the rest of the vid isn't going to make sense.

That makes a lot of sense. I think the problem I had was that I'm already on your playing field - show me a Supernatural/Heroes/Firefly vid and say "okay, this is incest," and I'll be right with you, nodding along, going "sure, of course it is." I definitely understand why you'd want to make that explicit rather than implicit, so even those who would otherwise not read the relationships as (actually or potentially) incestuous are on the same level when watching the vid. I guess I'd just prefer subtlety over exposition (in most things that I read/watch/etc), even if it means not everybody is going to get it; I read "Post Blue" as Simon/River, whereas I know other people read it as Simon & River, which could be frustrating if your vid hinges on it being one or the other (as in Climbing Up The Walls), but it's also that sense of not giving us all the facts that makes me vastly prefer Post Blue. (And I know it probably isn't fair to compare the two, given that they were designed for different purposes, but sometimes I guess it really does come down to whether you prefer apples or oranges.)

[amathela.livejournal.com]

Part two:


Or maybe it's because my idea is solidly based on the premise that sex is the thing that pushes an already unhealthy relationship into a let's-not-go-there horrid-arse dead-end. I felt that sex was necessary to make my point and from my perspective the sex simply wasn't there in canon. It might be, but it'll take a fairly large leap, especially if one isn't particularly invested in that particular fandom/pairing, so the manips were designed to bridge that gap and simply say, yes, they're having sex, now what.

I like this argument, too (and I'm really glad you ended up commenting, since I'm getting such a fascinating insight into why you structured the vid the way you did). Maybe the reason it just didn't click for me was the quantity of external/manipulated footage used; with (relatively) so much of the vid taken up by sex scenes, it felt at times like the sex became the point of the vid, rather than porn and manips being used more sparingly to make the point that these relationships are sexual and highlight the graphic/sexual/incestuous nature of the relationships, with the focus remaining solidly (and interrupted) on the fallout from the sex.

The primary driving force behind this vid is in fact the treatment that these 'ships have received in fandom. I've seen a lot of fics and vids that explore the incest like it's nothing; the characters mull over the ramifications of fucking their brother with nothing more than just a superficial angst face and then promptly fall into bed together. That was the essence of what I wanted to show, which begins on the premise of sex actually happening already, as opposed to "so what do these canon relationships have in common and why are they bad?" So from my view this was never supposed to be a comment on an AU universe; it was supposed to be a comment on how fandom has taken a concept and run with it without thinking too much about the consequences.

That's definitely a perspective I considered; like I said, above, to giandujakiss, the vid actually does work for me on a meta level, but I assumed - perhaps wrongly - that the (primary) focus of the vid was on the damaging aspects of these relationships from an in-universe perspective.

I'm really pleased that the vid inspired the post, even though it didn't work for you personally. Thank you again for your thoughtful comments!

Thank you for debating them with me - it really helped me to understand your intentions with the vid, besides being a lot of fun to talk to you about it. I appreciate the vid more each time I watch/read about/think about it, even if I still don't necessarily love it - and I've been thinking about it ever since I first watched it, which means it's definitely doing something for me, even if it's not what I expected.

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post. I really wasn't going to check out this vid because of the incest and, much more importantly, the NSFW warnings, but because of what you and obsessive24 and giandjakiss had to say, I had to see it for myself. And it was amazing. I am completely blown away.

[amathela.livejournal.com]

It's definitely the kind of vid you want to see for yourself - I'm glad you checked it out!